Killing: justifiable?
Is killing the same as murder?
CAESAR: I could be well mov’d if I were as you;
If I could pray to move, prayers would move me;
But I am constant as the northern star,
Of whose true fix’d and resting quality
There is no fellow in the firmament.
The skies are painted and unnumber’d sparks,
They are all fire and every one doth shine,
But there’s but one in all doth hold its place:
So, in the world; ‘tis furnish’d well with men,
And men are flesh and blood, and apprehensive;
Yet in number I do know but one
That unassailable holds to his rank,
Unshak’d of emotion: and that I am he,
Let me a little show it, even in this,
That I was constant Cimber should be banished,
And constant do remain to keep him so.
CINNA: O Caesar,—
CAESAR: Hence! Wilt thou lift up Olympus!
DECIUS: Great Caesar,—
CAESAR: Doth not Brutus bootless kneel?
CASCA: Speak, hands, for me! They stab Caesar
CAESAR: Et tu Brute? Then fall, Caesar! Dies
- - Julius Caesar by William Shakespeare
Eloquent words with majestic pronouncements and then the blades strike...Caesar lays dead and the assassination is complete however the repercussions would echo across the years. Was Caesar murdered or killed (or perhaps both or neither)?
The assassination of Caesar the legal head of state was murder but how is killing different from murder? Caesar inflamed jealousy from other powers in the Roman government as he was not first among equals but towered over them by quality in almost every regard.
When if ever is it allowable to murder a head of state? Why would it be wrong to assassinate JFK but not Hitler? Is it permissible if they become a tyrant, and how do we measure tyranny? Indeed is there a moral responsibility to assassinate a tyrannical leader?
In the case of Caesar’s assassination it was members of the Senate that murdered him. Does that make it right or must it be the “common folk” such as in the French Revolution? (Read A Day at the Beach for more on this) Was the American Revolution truly justifiable?
Surly democracies hold no room for such action, we have freedom, liberty and elections but what of nations such as North Korea? What about self-defence?
Was the capital punishment of Jesus a justifiable murder?
So they took Jesus away. Carrying the cross by himself, he went to the place called Place of the Skull (in Hebrew, Golgotha). There they nailed him to the cross..... he said, “It is finished!” Then he bowed his head and released his spirit.
- - John 19:16b-18a, 30b (NLT)
The state does not carry the sword for nothing but when and how should it implement capital punishment or war? Jesus was sentenced to death by the conquering Roman Empires Procurator Pontius Pilate. There are many avenues we can wander along with the events surrounding Jesus. Let us zero in on one aspect (if you want to converse about others feel free to do so in your comments) Jesus was innocent of the charges laid against Him, He committed no capital crime and was not deserving of capital punishment is then his death murder by the state? Jesus was not a citizen of the Empire so He really had little or no rights is then capital punishment an even greater evil? Was His murder justifiable?
This being said I support capital punishment under certain circumstances however the evidence must be overwhelming.
What about large scale taking of life, is war ever justifiable? I support Just War Doctrine and you can learn more about that from an earlier article: War is not Pro-life, a Response.
Is it wrong to kill animals even for food?
When they have finally grown large enough, animals raised for food are crowded onto trucks and transported over many miles through all weather extremes to the slaughterhouse. Those who survive this nightmarish journey will have their throats slit, often while they are still fully conscious. Many are still conscious when they are plunged into the scalding water of the defeathering or hair-removal tanks or while their bodies are being skinned or hacked apart.
- - PETA: GoVeg.com: Factory Farming
I confess to being an omnivore that eats meat but I am also an animal lover. Is the killing of animal’s murder? Is it an evil action? Does it matter if the animal’s death was for food or clothing or pharmaceuticals? Is it unethical to keep the animals in poor conditions and then kill them with excessive violence? What about animal rights? Do you know that even today animal sacrifice is practiced within Islam in a "ritual slaughter” called Dhabihah?
Sentience can be seen at the core of many of these kinds of issues. Humans are self aware and are also responsible for Biblical-Guardianship-Stewardship-Cultivation (the proper balance in regards to our environment and other creatures). So although we may have the right to take the life of animals for sustenance we also have the responsibility of doing so in a humane conscientious manner. Killing a goat is not murder yet that does not mean we approach such a killing in a cavalier mode. Modern societies have no right to kill animals for the exclusive use as clothing (for a more poetic look at this read one of my favourite articles Serenity on a String).
Perhaps I have more questions than answers….how about you…for “men are flesh and blood, and apprehensive.”
In the end it seems killing is different from murder. Murder is the unauthorized intentional taking of the life of an innocent person. Killing applies to the taking of non-sentient species and accidental/unintentional taking of innocent human/sentient life. So is killing then justifiable? Yes, under some circumstances….
This being said I am sure my co-simulblogger will have something controversial to say so let us sneak over to MAX.
CAESAR: I could be well mov’d if I were as you;
If I could pray to move, prayers would move me;
But I am constant as the northern star,
Of whose true fix’d and resting quality
There is no fellow in the firmament.
The skies are painted and unnumber’d sparks,
They are all fire and every one doth shine,
But there’s but one in all doth hold its place:
So, in the world; ‘tis furnish’d well with men,
And men are flesh and blood, and apprehensive;
Yet in number I do know but one
That unassailable holds to his rank,
Unshak’d of emotion: and that I am he,
Let me a little show it, even in this,
That I was constant Cimber should be banished,
And constant do remain to keep him so.
CINNA: O Caesar,—
CAESAR: Hence! Wilt thou lift up Olympus!
DECIUS: Great Caesar,—
CAESAR: Doth not Brutus bootless kneel?
CASCA: Speak, hands, for me! They stab Caesar
CAESAR: Et tu Brute? Then fall, Caesar! Dies
- - Julius Caesar by William Shakespeare
Eloquent words with majestic pronouncements and then the blades strike...Caesar lays dead and the assassination is complete however the repercussions would echo across the years. Was Caesar murdered or killed (or perhaps both or neither)?
The assassination of Caesar the legal head of state was murder but how is killing different from murder? Caesar inflamed jealousy from other powers in the Roman government as he was not first among equals but towered over them by quality in almost every regard.
When if ever is it allowable to murder a head of state? Why would it be wrong to assassinate JFK but not Hitler? Is it permissible if they become a tyrant, and how do we measure tyranny? Indeed is there a moral responsibility to assassinate a tyrannical leader?
In the case of Caesar’s assassination it was members of the Senate that murdered him. Does that make it right or must it be the “common folk” such as in the French Revolution? (Read A Day at the Beach for more on this) Was the American Revolution truly justifiable?
Surly democracies hold no room for such action, we have freedom, liberty and elections but what of nations such as North Korea? What about self-defence?
Was the capital punishment of Jesus a justifiable murder?
So they took Jesus away. Carrying the cross by himself, he went to the place called Place of the Skull (in Hebrew, Golgotha). There they nailed him to the cross..... he said, “It is finished!” Then he bowed his head and released his spirit.
- - John 19:16b-18a, 30b (NLT)
The state does not carry the sword for nothing but when and how should it implement capital punishment or war? Jesus was sentenced to death by the conquering Roman Empires Procurator Pontius Pilate. There are many avenues we can wander along with the events surrounding Jesus. Let us zero in on one aspect (if you want to converse about others feel free to do so in your comments) Jesus was innocent of the charges laid against Him, He committed no capital crime and was not deserving of capital punishment is then his death murder by the state? Jesus was not a citizen of the Empire so He really had little or no rights is then capital punishment an even greater evil? Was His murder justifiable?
This being said I support capital punishment under certain circumstances however the evidence must be overwhelming.
What about large scale taking of life, is war ever justifiable? I support Just War Doctrine and you can learn more about that from an earlier article: War is not Pro-life, a Response.
Is it wrong to kill animals even for food?
When they have finally grown large enough, animals raised for food are crowded onto trucks and transported over many miles through all weather extremes to the slaughterhouse. Those who survive this nightmarish journey will have their throats slit, often while they are still fully conscious. Many are still conscious when they are plunged into the scalding water of the defeathering or hair-removal tanks or while their bodies are being skinned or hacked apart.
- - PETA: GoVeg.com: Factory Farming
I confess to being an omnivore that eats meat but I am also an animal lover. Is the killing of animal’s murder? Is it an evil action? Does it matter if the animal’s death was for food or clothing or pharmaceuticals? Is it unethical to keep the animals in poor conditions and then kill them with excessive violence? What about animal rights? Do you know that even today animal sacrifice is practiced within Islam in a "ritual slaughter” called Dhabihah?
Sentience can be seen at the core of many of these kinds of issues. Humans are self aware and are also responsible for Biblical-Guardianship-Stewardship-Cultivation (the proper balance in regards to our environment and other creatures). So although we may have the right to take the life of animals for sustenance we also have the responsibility of doing so in a humane conscientious manner. Killing a goat is not murder yet that does not mean we approach such a killing in a cavalier mode. Modern societies have no right to kill animals for the exclusive use as clothing (for a more poetic look at this read one of my favourite articles Serenity on a String).
Perhaps I have more questions than answers….how about you…for “men are flesh and blood, and apprehensive.”
In the end it seems killing is different from murder. Murder is the unauthorized intentional taking of the life of an innocent person. Killing applies to the taking of non-sentient species and accidental/unintentional taking of innocent human/sentient life. So is killing then justifiable? Yes, under some circumstances….
This being said I am sure my co-simulblogger will have something controversial to say so let us sneak over to MAX.














16 Comments: To leave a comment click here:
Hey LS,
I will have to divide my comment into two or more comments (because of some sort of problem with blogger: it says my comment is too big...go figure).
Fantastic beginning to this article: you graced us with Shakespeare *bowing*! As I began reading your post, I immediately recognised his style.
Now, let me comment your thoughts (which are magnificent - BTW, you have managed to cover a lot of issues so succinctly: congrats :D!).
"(...) but how is killing different from murder?" - killing is unintentional, murder is premeditated (thus intentional).
"When if ever is it allowable to murder a head of state?" - when he attacks his own countrymen (or the citizens he she should serve and protect); and by "attack" I mean persecute, torture, murder, starve them.
"Indeed is there a moral responsibility to assassinate a tyrannical leader?" - yes. The world ignored Pinochet (and alike) and people were tortured, raped. Let me share what these tyrannical leaders can do: they arrest a whole family, because it is thought that they conspire against the government; they torture them (and since they don't obtain what they wanted - since the family is innocent), they force a father to rape a daughter, a son to rape his own mother (while the others watch); the mother and daughter are raped with rats (yes, rats enter their vagina); then "soldiers" rape the whole family and beat them up. So, yes...there is a moral responsibility to assassinate tyrannical leaders. Immoral is to let them be and violate the dignity of their people.
And mind you, I spoke not of the "scientific" experiments they do on their captives.
"Does that make it right or must it be the “common folk” such as in the French Revolution?" - a leader must set aside his own agenda and serve the people. He is not to sit in a higher place to explore citizens; and if he does then he will face the consequences of his acts.
Of course, in the Roman Empire (prior to 212 A.D.) there was a notion of whom was a citizen and whom was not (for example, if you were "Civis romanus" then yes, you were a citizen, but if you were not then who cared about you - thank God, we have evolved), but still if you stepped on the toes of the "Cives" then you were done.
Self-defence is not murder, for it is not intentional but it is fighting for one's life. The Bible speaks of this, and considers it not a transgression.
"Was the capital punishment of Jesus a justifiable murder?" - yes, because it was part of a prophecy. We know that.
Part II
"This being said I support capital punishment under certain circumstances however the evidence must be overwhelming." - me too.
"is war ever justifiable?" - It is justifiable when a war is fought by soldiers against soldiers (that is, a state against a state). If it is a militia attacking civilians and then calling it war - this is not justifiable; it is murder (hence, unjustifiable). If it is a militia, of a non-state, fighting against a state, it is justifiable for the state to defend itself, but it is not justifiable for the militia (because usually they attack innocent people first, and jeopardise their own countrymen [i.e. civilians] - look at Sri Lanka's Tamil Tigers and Gaza's Hamas, for example).
"Is it wrong to kill animals even for food?" - no. But we must do it in a kosher way.
"Is it unethical to keep the animals in poor conditions and then kill them with excessive violence?" - yes.
"What about animal rights?" - well, humans rights are broken everyday...let alone animal rights. It's sad, but it is true.
"Do you know that even today animal sacrifice is practiced within Islam in a "ritual slaughter” called Dhabihah?" - this seems to be similar to Shechitah, is it not?
"Modern societies have no right to kill animals for the exclusive use as clothing" - rubbish...a coat made by animal fur is much warmer than a synthetic coat. Leather shoes are much better than synthetic ones (that cause the feet bacteriae to smell) and so forth, so forth...
"So is killing then justifiable? Yes, under some circumstances…." - I agree.
"This being said I am sure my co-simulblogger will have something controversial to say so let us sneak over to MAX." - LOL LOL LOL oh, so now I am controversial, eh? LOL LOL... ;)
Very good article, LS. You offered us something different (from what you usually do): I loved it :D!
Cheers
Hey Maximus,
Part 1
I have had the same problem with comments now on multiple blogs...it seems that Blogger has made an adjustment to comment lengths without notifying people...On “D’s” blog I had to parse up a comment into 4-5 segments...I will adjust/edit quotes for my replies to save space etc...
“Fantastic beginning to this article: you graced us with Shakespeare...I immediately recognised his style.”
- Shakespeare is pretty difficult to emulate, some people do have problems with the style of English but this death scene is so well written!
“Now, let me comment your thoughts (which are magnificent - BTW, you have managed to cover a lot of issues so succinctly: congrats :D!).”
- LOL LOL Definitely a challenge for me!!! Thanks...*bowing*
“ killing is unintentional, murder is premeditated (thus intentional).”
- We are on the same page...but there is a bit more to this so I will read on...
"When if ever is it allowable to murder a head of state?" - when he attacks his own countrymen (or the citizens he she should serve and protect); and by "attack" I mean persecute, torture, murder, starve them.”
- Are we including incompetence as well as draconian policy?
"Indeed is there a moral responsibility to assassinate a tyrannical leader?" - yes. The world ignored Pinochet...So, yes...there is a moral responsibility to assassinate tyrannical leaders. Immoral is to let them be and violate the dignity of their people....And mind you, I spoke not of the "scientific" experiments they do on their captives.
- Of course I agree with your words but let me add another question is it acceptable to ever use “torture” as say with terrorists etc?
"Does that make it right or must it be the “common folk” such as in the French Revolution?" - a leader must set aside his own agenda and serve the people. He is not to sit in a higher place to explore citizens; and if he does then he will face the consequences of his acts. Of course, in the Roman Empire (prior to 212 A.D.) there was a notion of whom was a citizen and whom was not (for example, if you were "Civis romanus" then yes, you were a citizen, but if you were not then who cared about you - thank God, we have evolved), but still if you stepped on the toes of the "Cives" then you were done.
- I would find exploitation to be much worse than mere exploration ;)
The situation of slaves in the Empire was also a challenge for the scales of power that and of course the dramatic assent of Christianity
So were both methods (Caesar and the French Revolution acceptable?)
“Self-defence is not murder, for it is not intentional but it is fighting for one's life. The Bible speaks of this, and considers it not a transgression.”
- I would agree with you I would even add that at times to not apply self defence would be sinful.
"Was the capital punishment of Jesus a justifiable murder?" - yes, because it was part of a prophecy. We know that.
- Ok I know where you are coming from..but let us also view it form the non-prophetic point of view what then?
Dear Maximus,
Part 2
"This being said I support capital punishment under certain circumstances however the evidence must be overwhelming." - me too.
- Under what circumstances would you view capital punishment as acceptable?
"is war ever justifiable?" - It is justifiable when a war is fought by soldiers against soldiers (that is, a state against a state). If it is a militia attacking civilians and then calling it war - this is not justifiable; it is murder (hence, unjustifiable). If it is a militia, of a non-state, fighting against a state, it is justifiable for the state to defend itself, but it is not justifiable for the militia (because usually they attack innocent people first, and jeopardise their own countrymen [i.e. civilians] - look at Sri Lanka's Tamil Tigers and Gaza's Hamas, for example).”
- Excellent insight...so you would call civil war unjustified would this include the American Civil War? Does it include the assassination of a leader? (Of course we are speaking purely hypothetically here and are in no way condoning violence)
"Is it wrong to kill animals even for food?" - no. But we must do it in a kosher way.”
- LOL Button pusher! LOL Why kosher?
"Is it unethical to keep the animals in poor conditions and then kill them with excessive violence?" - yes.”
- Excellent!
"What about animal rights?" - well, humans rights are broken everyday...let alone animal rights. It's sad, but it is true.”
- I would not say I fall into the animal rights crowd. I do believe we often treat animals in inhumane ways that need to be improved; animals are not just a resource. I will add that although I do see greater value in humans I do not think lowly of animals as I do not think God does.
"Do you know that even today animal sacrifice is practiced within Islam in a "ritual slaughter” called Dhabihah?" - this seems to be similar to Shechitah, is it not?”
- There are some similarities I simply wanted to spotlight a practice that many would not be aware of. Of course followers of Jesus are not bound to dietary laws and rituals, Jesus is our perfect sacrifice.
"Modern societies have no right to kill animals for the exclusive use as clothing" - rubbish...a coat made by animal fur is much warmer than a synthetic coat. Leather shoes are much better than synthetic ones (that cause the feet bacteriae to smell) and so forth, so forth...”
- Note I said “exclusive use” I am saying that as much of the animal as possible should be used not just its pelt or skin. To not for example also to eat the meat would be poor stewardship...
"So is killing then justifiable? Yes, under some circumstances…." - I agree.”
- I could see that coming...we better look for a topic we will disagree sharply on!! LOL
"This being said I am sure my co-simulblogger will have something controversial to say so let us sneak over to MAX." - LOL LOL LOL oh, so now I am controversial, eh? LOL LOL... ;)”
- You are provocative, intriguing and challenging...controversial I’m trying! LOL
“Very good article, LS. You offered us something different (from what you usually do): I loved it :D!”
- Thank you dear I am always trying to adapt and grow I am now beaming over to your place...
LivingSword and Max, I would probably start out by asking what the meaning and basis of the word "justifiable" is.
Regarding "just war" theory, my impression is that the history of the notion is roughly this:
1) Julius Caesar engaged in a lot of needless provocations in Gaul and Germany, resulting in a lot of killing just to bring glory to Caesar and Rome, thus, causing Cicero and others to reflect on what was or was not expedient for the Roman Empire in its dealings with the barbarian nations. The resulting pragmatic war theory was about efficiently using Roman blood to control barbarians by playing them off against each other and hopefully getting them to kill off all of their soldiers first, followed by a bloodless annexation of one or more of the barbarian parties.
2) Augustine picked up on this notion, which he called "just war", as a trial balloon / straw man for a discussion on whether or not philosophy had anything meaningful to contribute regarding happiness, when most of mankind lived in misery. As I see it, Augustine never asserted that "just war" was a legitimate concept, nor did he even develop the topic beyond what was needed to rebut loosely related assertions of pagan philosophy.
My overall impression is that "just war theory" is a 20th century invention, but Augustine is invoked to provide legitimacy and cover. Any thoughts on that? Did I miss something?
Looney
CC Maximus
Excellent comment!
LOL Well this topic was Max’s choice so I will be interested in her view on “justifiable”…for my threshold of “justifiable” I used the following definition while attempting to delineate further with the Bible informing:
Justifiable: capable of being justified; that can be shown to be or can be defended as being just, right, or warranted; defensible: justifiable homicide.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/justifiable
While I agree more or less with the historical narrative you propose for the theory/doctrine I would venture to say it is also supported from Scripture…did you read the supportive article I linked to War is not Pro-life, a Response? I would say that a nation state has a right and indeed a responsibility to defend its citizens and even within the community of nations.
Your point on Julius Caesar’s invasion/war with Rome’s neighbours is well taken. However how would you view the assassination of Caesar? (Allowing for the fact that the Bard’s version is not exactly historical, are you a Shakespeare fan?)
LivingSword (CC Maxy), thanks for that definition. In the spirit of Socrates, errr..., Plato, however, I must continue!
For example, noting that "Justifiable" means "capable of being justified", is something I could deduce automatically from the -able ending. Similarly for the rest of the definitions, we are simply offered synonyms, but we are not informed of either the definition of "just", nor of the process whereby we would determine if a specific event is to be categorized as "just". Perhaps y'all could investigate this some more?
Regarding Shakespeare, I generally ranked forcing children to study Shakespeare as being more cruel and inhumane than waterboarding, hence, in violation of the Geneva Convention that exists in some alternate reality. Actually, I feel I would enjoy Shakespeare now more than when I was younger ...
As for Caesar, well, I read his "Conquest of Gaul", but not "The Civil War" nor did I read what his detractors had to say about him. Too much to fill in. His principle crime was in bringing down the Roman Republic and establishing the Roman Empire. Claiming his murder to be justified would put me in an awkward position, given the transition that is occurring to the American Republic at the moment!
Looney
CC Maxy
;)
Good point but don’t forget I said my position was informed by Scripture.
As for the concept of being “Just” I am leaning on God’s attribute of righteousness/justice. God’s righteousness means that God always acts in accordance with what is right and is Himself the final standard of what is right/just.
God’s attribute of righteousness/justice is intrinsic to Who He. This is then expressed in Scripture which I appeal to in support of Just War.
LOL On Shakespeare it seems our appreciation is similar! Shakespeare’s writing is really quite ingenious it is the old English that makes it challenging.
As per Caesar bringing down the Roman Republic I would say that the Senate actually did this when they chose to legally give him power…have you read much about Sulla?
Livingsword, there is a whole era there that I didn't study yet. I picked up a copy of Sallust's work for dirt cheap at a used book store, then set it on the shelf with the other TBR (To Be Read) literature.
I have heard that there is a mental disorder associated with keeping lots of books on bookshelves so that you can impress your visitors, while not having read them. Do you know anything about that? When I visit a new house, the first thing I note is the books. ;)
Hi Looney…
Sulla was quite the dictator however in the end he did reign as he promised he would…the period 120BC to 5BC is very fascinating it seems too often not get the “air time” that the following 100 years does but even the part before Caesar was prominent was interesting and quite explosive with the conjunction of events and amazing people…
ROFL
Well I do have a lot of books…however I am not trying to impress others as most of them are kept upstairs…besides some classics, art books and some Bibles (with accompanying study “tools”) for Monday Bible studies…oh no some of my Star Trek books are also downstairs! Oh and there are some blogging books and search engine optimization books….Hmmmm….mea culpa! Well at least I am impressed (Chocolate Girl less so)…
Hey LSus,
Part I
"I have had the same problem with comments now on multiple blogs...it seems that Blogger has made an adjustment to comment lengths without notifying people...On “D’s” blog I had to parse up a comment into 4-5 segments...I will adjust/edit quotes for my replies to save space etc..."
Man...it was the first time it happened to me. I am ready to complain over at Group-Help (or whatever they call it, because it is neither a group nor it helps, but it's ok). I will ask Blogger/Google if this is an attempt at our freedom of expression, or if perhaps they want to condemn us all to leave intellectually-ill comments like "hey, nice blog!"....
"- Shakespeare is pretty difficult to emulate, some people do have problems with the style of English but this death scene is so well written!"
It's ok, even some Brits have issues with the style of English LOL. Seriously, Shakespeare is amazing...there is only one of his books I didn't like: Romeo and Juliet (yet, I will give it another try because when I read it I was too young and had not met Love yet).
"- LOL LOL Definitely a challenge for me!!! Thanks...*bowing*"
LOL and you succeeded :)! You're welcome *bowing*!
"- We are on the same page...but there is a bit more to this so I will read on..."
Oh my God...we are on the same page!!!! LOL ;)
"- Are we including incompetence as well as draconian policy?"
No, incompetence is not included...anyone can be incompetent (because one can convince itself that it is good at doing something, when in fact it needs to wake up and smell the coffee). However, if an individual tries to conceal its lack of competence with draconian policies then yes..."an offer he cannot refuse" must be put on the table.
"- Of course I agree with your words but let me add another question is it acceptable to ever use “torture” as say with terrorists etc?"
It depends on your concept of torture. There are ways of extracting vital information without humiliating prisioners, that can be viewed as torture. Humiliation (of any sort) should be repudiated.
"- I would find exploitation to be much worse than mere exploration ;)"
Yes, thank you for correcting me: exploitation is the word I meant to use :).
"The situation of slaves in the Empire was also a challenge for the scales of power that and of course the dramatic assent of Christianity
So were both methods (Caesar and the French Revolution acceptable?)"
Indeed. I would say that both methods were acceptable for evolution sake.
"- I would agree with you I would even add that at times to not apply self defence would be sinful."
I must agree with you.
"- Ok I know where you are coming from..but let us also view it form the non-prophetic point of view what then?"
From the non-prophetic view the Romans had no justification to kill Jesus. But since Jesus cannot be taken out of the Prophetic context....his death was justifiable.
Darling LSus,
Part II
"- Under what circumstances would you view capital punishment as acceptable?"
Vicious rape; vicious murder; pedophaelia.
"- Excellent insight...so you would call civil war unjustified would this include the American Civil War? Does it include the assassination of a leader? (Of course we are speaking purely hypothetically here and are in no way condoning violence)"
We do not condone violence of any sort here.
Hmm...the American Civil War was justifiable because it was some sort of reunification of a nation and a fight for civil rights - in a way, it was "two states" fighting against each other (North Vs South); but under a different point of view it can be said that it was a state fighting against rebels (the southern states)...still the spirit of this conflict is not to be compared with Sri Lanka nor Gaza.
As I said before, a leader should be put down when it attacks the very citizens it should be serving and protecting (and part of serving is to know when to leave office/relinquish power). But I may be wrong...
"- LOL Button pusher! LOL Why kosher?"
LOL LOL moi? Kosher as in the right way. Animals must be killed with respect and with prayer.
"- Excellent!"
*High 5*!
"- I would not say I fall into the animal rights crowd. I do believe we often treat animals in inhumane ways that need to be improved; animals are not just a resource. I will add that although I do see greater value in humans I do not think lowly of animals as I do not think God does."
*nodding in agreement*....
"- There are some similarities I simply wanted to spotlight a practice that many would not be aware of. Of course followers of Jesus are not bound to dietary laws and rituals, Jesus is our perfect sacrifice."
Ok...
"- Note I said “exclusive use” I am saying that as much of the animal as possible should be used not just its pelt or skin. To not for example also to eat the meat would be poor stewardship..."
Ah, now I get it...pardon my temporary lack of understanding...please think not I was trying to be controversial here at Life on the Blade :).
"- I could see that coming...we better look for a topic we will disagree sharply on!! LOL"
LOL LOL I promise next time I will think of one! LOL...
"- You are provocative, intriguing and challenging...controversial I’m trying! LOL"
LOL LOL LOL LOL! That was a good one LOL LOL LOL....
"- Thank you dear I am always trying to adapt and grow I am now beaming over to your place..."
You are most welcome :D! The beauty of trying is to succeed, and you are succeeding :D!
Looney and LS,
Interesting debate...I will be back to you guys soon...
Lol, geez, you raised a lot of questions and food for thought, I had a prepared answer after doing mine for Max, now you kind of added another bunch of questions and I must admit am surprised about your capital punishment stance, oh well.
I am against any premeditated murder, assisted suicide, abortion and capital punishment but never before thought of animals, I think it's the lack of sentience, although I sometimes believe my cat is sentient.
Killing is what you do when it's not premeditated or animals like war and self defence, I think, now you got me thinking about the differences between Murder and Killing and how animals fit into things, that is non sentient ones,lol.
Hi Bob….
LOL Max and I do often come at these things in very different ways!
I have to say I am not a proponent of “easy” capital punishment. I support it in such cases as say Canadian Paul Bernardo a serial murderer and rapist. He and his wife Tammy were captured on their own video raping and performing horrific torture on their victim’s…young girls. The evidence for his crimes is unassailable and his crimes I believe warrant capital punishment. I also believe the state has both the right and responsibility to exact such punishment in these kinds of situations.
I also support the killing of animals in humane ways for food.
I have to say I find the current seal hunt to be quite deplorable as in the vast majority of cases the animal meat is not even consumed they simply use the fur. I am in favour of sustaining human life with meat but we should be good stewards of our environment.
I agree that sentience is a “game changer.”
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